Chris Voss and Tara Cardinal: Help Women Become Better Negotiators (#128)

Fei Wu: Hey. Hello. How are you? This is a show for everyone else instead of going after top 1% of the world, we dedicate this podcast to celebrate the lives of the unsung heroes and self-made artists.

Chris Voss: In a negotiation, you can be assertive without being aggressive. You can, you have to assert your own interests. There's a way to call out the things that are, that are true or the things that are being implied depending upon how the. Conversation is going, you don't, you don't have to be the attacking negotiator.

Tara Cardinal: In my personal life, when somebody asks you a question that assertive, it can easily turn into something very aggressive, and the key was to ask the question and then just let it stand, to shut the hell up and let the question do it's. That was tough to not defend it, to not back it up, to just let it be.

Chris Voss: What a lot of people don't realize also is typically that, you know, the point of contention may be a gateway into something else. You know, people's problems. It's a cliche, an equal or greater opportunity, but it's actually the way sort of life works.

Tara Cardinal: It really puts things into perspective when the person that you're taking advice from has used these techniques to save lives. You know it as the adrenaline gets pumped up and, and I'm sitting there going, oh, I can't say this. I can't do this. This is too much. This is too aggressive. I have to look at where this advice is coming from and that it's been field tested in ways that I will never personally.

Fei Wu: Hey, how are you? It's Fa w and uh, welcome to another episode of the Phase World Podcast. It's going to be a great show today because I am joined by Chris Vos and also one of Chris's students and actress Tara Cardinal, as well as my executive producer, Adam l. Sounds like a full house. Chris has actually appeared on an earlier episode of Face Road Podcast just about a year ago. In episode number 68, prior to starting the Black Swan Group, Chris was an FBI agent and specialized in international hostage negotiation. Since releasing his book, never split the difference. Chris has traveled in the United States and around the world as a keynote speaker to pass on his superpower. What is the Black Swan Group? In Chris's words, we help people solve business negotiation problems with strategic hostage negotiation solutions. We coach rising stars and fix deals gone bad. We train Fortune 500 high potential executives. Here are some examples of client success and results. A client at a major hospital corporation increases profit in the deal by $200,000 using their method. Another client in a major banking transaction increases profit by a hundred thousand dollars. Also, a client increases profit by 2 million and repaired a bad relationship in a single negotiation using their methods. This episode is a rare opportunity for us to not only hear from Chris, but also one of his students, too, Tara Cardinal. Together we discuss the coaching methodology and process, and we break it down so that you get to look inside the situation Tara was dealing with and how Chris coached her to navigate the muddy water. Tara has an unusual background. At 12 years old, she co-founded a peer counseling organization dedicated to assisting children suffering from sexual abuse. By age 16, she had decided to move to the US to live the American dream, working three jobs to make ends meet. She was discovered at a shopping mall and acted in her first movie in 2006. Since then, she frequently appeared in horror and also fantasy films and likes to perform her own stunts. The four of us hit it off right away on Skype. We opened our hearts and souls beyond negotiation, beating the competition, but a conversation that is to also discuss our own fears and. Chris and Tara are no exception either. There was some technical difficulties during recording, but we were able to resolve most of that in post production. A big shout out to Herman, my incredible audio producer, who has been the unsung hero and the absolute integral part of phase world. This episode is an experiment, as mentioned earlier, with a new format, two guests, two hosts. Let us know how you like it and if you want to see more of it going forward. I always welcome your feedback via comments on the blog or anywhere on social media. I promise you that I read and respond to them all person. Without further ado, please welcome Chris Vos and Toro Cardinal to the Phase World Podcast. Well, thank you so much for, uh, joining the show. And, um, Tara, I've, I believe you're being coached by Chris, just so how did you guys find each.

Tara Cardinal: Um, actually, it's kind of a funny story. Um, I was dating a trial lawyer who started using these weird tactics on me, and then one day he, he giggled and said, here, you need to read this book because I've been doing this to you. And it was never split the difference. And, um, I read it in one weekend. It was the craziest thing. I opened the book and I couldn't put it down. Uh, I read the whole thing. I, I fell asleep reading the book. I woke up, I read the book. I was like, oh, I need some coffee. I got myself some coffee. I read, I copied, and then I wasn't even finished reading it when I was like, I need to know who wrote this book. Like, the concepts in it were so, Novel and yet so intuitively, um, like they made sense even though they went against things that I had heard about how you're supposed to negotiate. So I, I find them on Facebook and here we are .

Fei Wu: Wow. So Chris, how, what is it like to be a coaching Tara, and what, what is the dynamic like?

Chris Voss: She's really smart and, you know, it worked for me on a lot of levels. I mean, chances are, if anybody is gonna get me to coach 'em, just kind of on a friend, request it to start with, I mean, I got a little bit of an agenda from wanting to make women better in negotiation. So, you know, if, if it's, they're a decent person, they genuinely want help, you know, a fair amount of people that I get approached by just want jobs. Um, but someone, someone I could tell who's, who's open to coaching and, and they want help, and then on, you know, it's also if it's in an industry that I'm interested in establishing some bonafides in, she's in the entertainment industry. If I'm coaching her, I'm also learning about it at the same time, you know? So then I get to meet, I get to meet a good person. I get to help that person out. And, you know, everybody moves their lives forward. It's, it's a perfect combination for me. That sounds beautiful.

Adam Leffert: So, Tara, you talked about novel and intuitive and maybe counterintuitive, you curious, could maybe hear more about

Tara Cardinal: that? Sure. Well, I mean, specifically. Once upon a time I was a telemarketer. And what they train you to do in telemarketing is go for the yes. Uh, I mean, you know what I'm talking about. Just, you know. Yes, yes, yes. Get them to say yes. And what Chris says in his book is absolutely dead on. Nobody wants to say yes. You know when the telemarketer calls you and they ask you some ridiculous question, like, do you want to survive today? Yes. But you know, they're setting you up for this trap. And Chris is like, no, not, don't do that. Go for the. And you know, as I was reading the book, what really struck me about it is, even though it's written specifically for business, is how it could apply to so many different areas of life, if not possibly all areas of life. There's just so much to do with it, you know, there's so many really good ideas. And although they're written specifically for business, they, you know, they didn't come from that. They, they came from from freeing host, which, which is amazing to.

Fei Wu: There's an important story that happened recently. I wanna hear about the deal, um, that you were able to negotiate with your newly acquired skills. The surprise, I think, Chris, as well as yourself.

Chris Voss: Right. So, to me, and part, part of this, what I want, what I want to, uh, set it up with was when she was, when she was talking to me about this, you know, my memory of it. That. She's like, I don't know how I'm gonna navigate this. You know, I know how I'm gonna work this out. I just don't see it. And, and I gave her a couple of, uh, of ideas, you know, some, some of the basic skills, which, you know, sort of work wonders. I don't know if it's gonna do any good. I don't know if that's gonna get me where I want to go. And I was kinda like, you know what, just do it anyway. And then she can tell you what happened.

Tara Cardinal: Yeah. I had this script and it had been floating around the world for quite some time, and somebody wanted it, but under circumstances that I didn't think were possible. And so the deal looked impossible. It, it just, I couldn't see how it was going to get anywhere. And there were so many obstacles, um, including people specifically trying to sabotage the deal and. I felt so helpless. Like I just, I couldn't see my way to the end. I, I just, I, I felt like there was no possible way it could be salvaged. And so I, I came to Chris. As a last resort. Yeah. Not only was it impossible, but I had people who were actively working against me to sabotage the deal. Um, in fact the, uh, a mutual acquaintance of the investor and I, he was, uh, trying to get this investor to not work with me, um, which I thought was interesting. Um, and Chris was able to help me navigate and negoti. All the players involved no matter how they were working, uh, one side or the other, and, and bring us all to a consensus, which was we all wanted the movie to be made. And so that was the basis on which we all came together, which was amazing. It was a legitimate win-win win. Um, I recall there was one time in particular where, um, uh, the, the investor's lawyer got. . And by the time she was done with me, I was nearly in tears and I'm a pretty tough girl to rattle. Um, but I mean, it just, we had come so far and I was convinced that it was over. Like it just, it could not possibly, um, continue. And, and I, I called Chris and I'm like, I'm, I'm done. And he gave me some advice. He said, this is what I want you to say. And it was so Braze. Oh, it was just, I mean, and I, I've got, I've got some balls. I, I'll say what I need to say, but this was even too much for me.

Fei Wu: I, I really wanna know what wasn't a script. I, I might have to write it down. I won't share it, but what we're sharing it

Tara Cardinal: to use it on me, it was, I mean, it was just, it was along the lines of, so let me get this straight, just to be clear. Uh, you intend on killing this deal because of X, Y, and C. And I was, I was, I can't say that. And Chris was like, yeah, you can. And I did. And it got exactly the response. He said it would. She immediately went back on her position and said that that was not her intent at all. She said I was being, not just dishonest, but she used the word fraudulent. I mean, so not what, just how I view myself at all. And, and so when I reflected that back to her, she not only went in the opposite direction, she said, actually, I feel like you're being very honest by disclosing all of the issues up front. I don't. Chris, what did you do? Did you like work some voodoo over there? How do you go from using the word fraudulent? And she, she went so far as to say I was setting her company up for a lawsuit to thinking I'm very honest and putting that in writing. And so lo and behold, um, to no fault of my own, all on Chris, the deal was signed and now we're in talks for yet another project.

Chris Voss: Alright, so here's what I like about this in particular because, you know, Faye, we talked before about, you know, the issue of women in negotiation and there's a lot of stuff out there that says that women are penalized for negotiating. Um, and I think women are penalized more for bad negotiation. So you're not negotiating the way I taught you to negotiate, then I got no problem. It's not my fault that it went bad anyway. Maybe it went bad worse for you than it would've for a man, but you're both doing it wrong. So this is a really great example of, you know, the approach that we use where what she just described was really assertive. and in a negotiation, you can be assertive without being aggressive. You can, you have to assert your own interests. There's a way to call out the things that are, that are true or the things that are being implied. Depending upon how the conversation is going. You don't, you don't have to be the attacking, arguing, screaming, table pounding, negotiator. You can be quite assertive on behalf of your own best. and if there's a dynamic that needs to be called out, whether you're a man or a woman. And she clearly called out a dynamic here. I mean, what she just described was very assertive, but it was within the context of the conversation and it made it all go away. You know, the other flip side is, you know, we teach people to craft, I teach thought craft, no oriented questions, principally because it's really hard for people to say yes to anything. We were also taking advantage of the fact here that everybody is so reluctant to say yes to anything. Let's craft something that she's never gonna say yes to. Nobody's ever gonna say, yes, I'm trying to kill the deal. And it's gonna be a way to sort of be a straight shooter and let the other side know, look, here's what it looks like. Now if this is not right, let's give, let's us give you a great opportunity to set the record straight. And that's exactly what Tara did. She, you know, it looks like you're trying to kill the deal here, right? Let me get this straight. Are you trying to kill the deal? Nobody is ever gonna say yes to that. But the, the act of making, trying to put someone in a position to say yes, make some stop and think about all the implications and the ramifications, most of the time, that's a bad. But this time it was the perfect strategy and so the person on the other side made 'em stop and think about everything that was going on, and they do a complete 180. I'm coaching tar to do this and you know, from the other side, unless you know this works, you're gonna be scared to death to do this. You know, I'm like, oh my God, I can't do that. That's, that's horrible. Within the context of what's we going on is going on right here, you're gonna do it. Respect. , you're, and you get away with a lot with respect and you're gonna do it appropriately within the situation. And, and with respect and appropriateness in any negotiation, if there's a problem, it's your job to bring it up and to solve it. And that's exactly what she did. And you know, thank God she was coachable, scared her to death. But I said, go ahead and do it. And she did it and it worked. It was great. It was

Tara Cardinal: amazing. It was, I think, um, one of the keys that, that I was very hesitant about is, you know, in my, in my personal life, when somebody asks you a question, uh, that assertive, it can easily turn into something very aggressive. And the key was, was to ask the question and then just let it stand, to shut the hell up and let the question do its. That was, that was tough to not defend it, to not back it up, to just let it be.

Fei Wu: I love that. I wanna talk about this forever, but I, I'm gonna throw in a question I'll give, um, Adam a chance as well. Chris, what's most amazing about what you just shared is, I'm imagining my head, you have not even had a chance to interface with any of these people on tar side yet. So you don't get to see them. One, there's a pretty high, you need to have a high tolerance of risk. When I offer advice to someone, I might be thinking, do I, do, I know exactly what's going on there? Are there something that she isn't telling? That it's not part of the calculation, but then, then you did it accurately, precisely. Strategically, how do you go about doing that?

Chris Voss: Well, you know, there's certain dynamics that I know are gonna be true because no matter what, they're, they're human beings involved. And so she's, she, she's talking to an attorney. Uh, they're risk averse. You know, when in doubt they're like, um, no, this can't be done. When in fact the answer is I don't. So then on the, also what I liked is, you know, this is somebody who's long time in, in an entertainment industry. I mean, I love coming up against the entertainment industry 20 year deal making attorneys because they are so sure they know everything. And I, I never explained to 'em what I'm doing because you know, if I do, they go like, oh really? Hostage negotiation. That's cute. That's cute. Then it never work here, but it's. And then so I stopped explaining to 'em what I'm doing. You know, I know we can hit these people. These long time experience, deal making attorneys in the entertainment industry are just as vulnerable as everybody else's. And so I got a pretty good idea from her description. I've got enough data points on how we got to where we are, and we're dealing with human being on the other side who's never gonna say yes. So let's either have him say no. Or put 'em in a position where they'll never say yes to the question we're gonna ask, but they don't feel cornered by that. That's, this is the, this is high emotional intelligence stuff. It's how to, how to push without cornering the other side if you don't corner the other side. and you do it in a way that's respectful and def to the situation, then you, you're, you're causing them to think things through the way that you want 'em to think things through. And at the end of the day, this is a human nature response and I knew it was gonna work.

Adam Leffert: So I guess I have a, I'd like to reflect one thing back to Chris and then I have a. A, a question for Tara, just the reflection and as this part of your career plays out and expands and grows, you'll shepherd it as, as you'll have to, as more and more people get involved. But I also have a lot of friends that do coaching and consulting, and what I've noticed along with what Faith said was that there are many levels of involvement. There's, you write the book, we read the. Then when Chris talks to Tara individually, he says, oh, in your situation, here's a summary. You could do this. That's another level of involvement, which can be rare. Next level being, oh, maybe strategic and tactical, they said this, you could say this along with, uh, an emotional psychic. Uh, psychological support. So just to call it that, those are very deep levels of involvement and to, to iterate. So that, that's an unusual experience for Tara for a client. I don't know how many people are gonna get it or whether they're different things, but, but that's extraordinary.

Chris Voss: Well, you know, a coach should be there for you. I mean, a, a a real coach should be somebody that, for all intents and purposes, if you fail, they. And, and that, and that's really, it's, coaching is an overused term. I mean, everybody's, everybody's a coach. You know, somebody can't hold a job, then the first thing they wanna do is go be a life coach, tell somebody else how to live. But you know when, when you've got, so you're ideally a good coach is somebody who's had, uh, uh, pretty substantial amount of success on their own. But spent a lot of time thinking about how to get better. Like I'm not a super smart guy. I'm a, I'm a regular human being, you know, so how did, I spent a lot of time thinking about how to get better and, and how to do it. And, and you don't necessarily have to be the best negotiator in the world to be a great coach. I mean, Phil Jackson was not the best basketball player in the world. He didn't even start for the Knicks when he played, but he's arguably one of the best coaches that ever. So you know who, who studies it, the coaching, and, and then, then if you're lucky enough to find somebody who will listen to you. Perfect. The, the question

Adam Leffert: I had, Tara, is that, so I even have to admit, I find myself saying right now, so I'm gonna go back and listen to this. I'm gonna take notes. I'm gonna, I'm gonna learn the, the parts that you've discussed and people are gonna Google you and hear about your extraordinary background, movie producer. Advocate for, you know, abused children, wrestler, all the, all these, you know, stunt person, all these amazing things. And in my own little way, I, I get involved with people and I say, Hey, you know, you could do this or I can help you with that. And sometimes you get somebody who says, well, you can, but I can't. So if somebody reads about you and watches your movies and goes, wow, she's like some kind of Wonder Woman superwoman. You can do it, but I can't. What would you say to somebody like,

Tara Cardinal: I'd say I feel the same way. Uh, there are days when I look back on my own bio and go, gosh, I wish I was her . It's a very human, uh, reaction to have that. Um, you know, and as a woman, we're told, as girls we're told, you can be smart or you can be pretty, or you can be athletic or not. And now I can't speak to my looks, but I, I can say that I'm pretty damn smart and I'm, I'm reasonably. I can hold my own with or without a sword or in a ring. Um, but I'm not the best at anything that I do. I try to do everything as though it's the only thing that I'm doing, and sometimes I have to step on my own toes, you know, if I've written a project and then directed it. Sometimes I have to cut my own scenes and I'm starring it and I'm editing. I remember, uh, when I wrote Sword Sisters, uh, it was a book of the month and, and I was invited to some book club and there was some girls, women, uh, saying that they couldn't sword fight because they were too short. And, uh, I don't publicly reveal my actual height because I think people would think less of me for it. But these were women that were several inches taller than. The trick is, is you just have to use a smaller sword. Otherwise it totally gets stuck in the ground when you try to defend your ankles . But it's, there's nothing that we can't do inherently because we are women or because we are underprivileged. Um, in fact, in Chris's class, he, he brought in a man, uh, ed Col. Who came from a background similar to mine. I have a grade seven education and nothing between that and college. Um, I moved out on my own when I was 16. Prior to that, I took care of my mom who was, uh, sick and I, I mean, I knew nothing. There are enormous gaps in my education. I'm mostly self-taught, and then I decided to get my g e d and put myself through college. And then once I got there, I realized I wanted to be a filmmaker, not a psychologist, but, uh, I mean, I, you know, you do things, you get an idea and you say, I wanna do this. And then you just keep plugging at it until you do it or decide that you don't want to. And that's it. That's all it is. I, I,

Chris Voss: I really get a big kick outta helping people. I mean, I can remember when I, when I became a hostage negotiator, I mean, the, the first time I negotiated somebody, In a, in a major situation. Uh, and it was a bank robber with hostages. And, and those are actually rare. They happen in the movies all the time, but they're actually exceedingly rare events. And the, the adrenaline high after that was fantastic, but I got, you know, every much of the same high when somebody that I taught negotiation would call me on the phone and say, Hey, we just talked this guy out. I mean, the SWAT team was out there and the SWAT team was gonna kill him. And my words saved that guy's life. I can remember several phone calls like that. Those negotiators would call me because they'd been through the training and they'd been skeptical and I'd said, look, just, you know, do what I tell you to do. Do this, learn it the way I'm telling you to learn it. You know, I'd be, they might, they might have pushed back a little bit, but I, I could tell that they were, you know, they were pushing back cuz they wanted it to work. and then they'd call me on the phone. Just, just absolutely in a state of flow, if you will. You know, to say that it's, uh, adrenaline is isn't completely accurate. You know, we know a lot more back and it's most, a lot more these days and it's more closely identified with the mental state of flow and when they would call me and they'd that and used what they learned to save somebody's. Now, you know, on a regular basis, I mean, people are making, having an impact on their lives, their, their daily lives. Tara is, she thinks she's got a deal going down to tubes and instead of having to go down to tubes over one film, she ends up with two because she pulled information out of her investor that she had no idea was there, and ended up agreeing to the terms that previously she didn't want to agree to cuz she thought it was gonna kill the deal. In the terms that we're gonna kill the deal, were actually the avenue into a much better and much bigger deal, which is what a lot of people don't realize also is typically that, you know, the point of contention may be a gateway into something else. And, and Tara found that in this deal. And, and that's common in a lot of deals, which means that, you know, people's problems, it's a cliche, an equal or greater opportunity, but it's actually the way sort of life works.

Fei Wu: So I have my feelings the moment. Uh, you know, I, I met Chris, uh, on Skype. The funny thing, we recorded the conversation with audio only and towards the end is like, oh, what did I do? I wanna see your face. And I felt like you were able to convey so much, even just with your voice and seeing you face to face. Um, you. Your brand, who you are as a person, aligned completely, almost in a way that you were exactly as I expected you to be. Um, so Tara, I know that you're in that difficult situation, but you just met Chris. What did he do to convince you to take such a big risk? Why did you trust him?

Tara Cardinal: I'm glad you asked that. Um, I was just thinking about this as he was talking. Um, It really puts things into perspective when the person that you're taking advice from has used these techniques to save lives. And so even if things were to go horribly, horribly wrong, no one will die. I mean, it just, it just won't work. You know, as the adrenaline gets pumped up and, and I'm sitting there going, oh, I can't say this. I can't do this. This is too much, this is too aggressive. I have to look at where this advice is coming from and that it's been field tested in ways that I will never personally experience and can't even legitimately picture myself negotiating for a hostage release. It, it really puts things into perspective as far as. Let me try this, and what's the worst that could

Fei Wu: happen? Yeah. To me, I think there's something, I know it's also hard to describe in addition to. Maybe the facts and the credibility. Uh, for me there's something really visceral as well. Um, that feeling that's hard for us to describe. When you shake hands with someone for the first time after the first exchange, um, I remember just talking to Chris. For the very first time via Skype. We had never exchanged the conversation prior. And I noticed that you were listening so carefully to my questions. Um, and you were asking me how I was feeling, how I was doing, if you're adding value to the podcast. And I realized at that point that, uh, not everybody even thought of it, but it was this acquire was a skill that you possess at a much higher level. I think. That we all need to learn from.

Chris Voss: It's a skill that I've developed too, you know, listening, emotional intelligence. I mean, you can get good at it if you just try. You know, there's certain things like, you know, I can try really hard to get good at chess, , it's gonna take a while, or I do not have a head for languages. Like some people can study French or Spanish and pick it up relatively easy. You know, it doesn't go into my brain that. But something like listening, which is an emotional intelligence skill. There's a lot of science out there that indicates that most of us have quite a capacity for this. So it, you know, it just, just with a not all that much effort, you can get good at listening. Um, so, which is also, it's a great thing about trying to teach it because I know that anybody that, uh, sits in front of me to try to learn. They can get good at it. This is . This is an easy, it'd be tough if I was teaching people a pole vault. Some people are not gonna be able to pole vault. You put some effort into listening, you can get good at it. I

Tara Cardinal: love that you think that anybody can, can learn this. Uh, I just wanna jump in here and say that. What I loved most about Chris's techniques is that it's insulting to call them techniques. It's really a lifestyle. It's not about how to win, it's really about being a better person and how to enrich the lives of everyone you come in contact with. I mean, if you, if you allow that, everything is a negotiation, and I believe it is, but you take out the connotation of the word negotiation, which implies content. and then you view it from the way Chris presents it. It's beautiful.

Fei Wu: Yeah.

Adam Leffert: You know, given that it's a lifestyle, I'm sure, of course you've used it for the, the enormous deal. That's two deals that you told us you used it in your life. Have you found yourself. Sharing it with other people as well. And, and how has that gone

Tara Cardinal: actually, yes. Um, I, I do a lot of work with people who are going through some tough times and, um, there was a, a group of women in particular that had gone through some domestic violence and I suggested to them that, uh, they read Chris's book because I think that there are some tools in there, um, where domestic violence, uh, there, there's a lot. There's a lot of hostage taking in domestic violence, and while there's no substitute for getting up and leaving when somebody is abusing you, it's nice to have every tool you possibly could. And even just, just asking the question, um, are you trying to hurt me? Do you not want us to be together anymore? Those, those sort of things that, um, that I think Chris would say or tell me or tell someone to say in that situation. . Um, so yes, I've, I've recommended his book to everyone I have ever met in just about every situation.

Fei Wu: Yeah,

Adam Leffert: it's chilling just to hear it as you tell. As you tell it.

Fei Wu: Or I notice What I've learned from Chris is have life in general, like you said, Tara, to be more exploratory. So in instead of saying we all, you know, there are books called Getting to Yes. There's no book called Getting to. No. But I notice our whole life as babies and we want the candies, we. Go to America. We want yes, at the end of every sentence, but often so oftentimes we're disappointed or driving completely a different result. I remember even as an adult running around to realize, Hey, you know, you actually didn't hear the question. Uh, you know, I'm just, so that's all I'm trying to do is get to, yes, I am putting all the right adjectives and additional sentence to get to what I want. It's always the opposite, so it. Something that sounds so simple, but I did not realize it for 30 years of my life until Chris pointed it out. Well,

Chris Voss: that's really cool. I mean, if it's helped in any way, if it's had any kind of a positive impact, then that's what, you know. I'm enormously appreciative of that. That's, that's what I'm hoping for. That's what we're after. Help as many people as we can, you know, and, and life does it. We make life harder on, on us. Life is hard enough as it is . Yeah, so sometimes the way that we communicate with people out of defensiveness, you know, most bad negotiation or most bad deals, uh, it, it's, it's not a result of mals. I mean, most of it is a defensiveness. People protecting themselves. They don't know any, any better way to protect themselves. So there's a tremendous amount of defensive behavior out there, which then, of course, you know, makes hostage negotiation skills even more appropriate because, you know, it's about letting people know that it's okay to drop your defenses. You know, we're gonna work this.

Fei Wu: So I, I, I love how you said that, Chris, and then just with that calmness and peacefulness and definitely like Tara said, your experience help us put many things in perspective. Um, so I have a question for maybe both of you, which is you're both very public figures. By choice of career. And, um, you know, of course you wrote a book. There are gonna be book reviews out there. You walk down the street, you become way more recognizable. You go to all these events. And for you, Tara, you're, you are an actress, you're a producer, you have an IMDB profile, you know, and, and you are a woman on top of that. So people are constantly judging you. How are you to responding to feedback? In some cases that may be negative or not true? Um, how do you feel about the position that you know you're in, you put yourself in today?

Chris Voss: Well, I'm alright, so I, I go first. Um, I've hung around, I studied this some with other people that were public figures, other people that were speakers to come to realize that being attacked is a sign of. So, um, you know, it's, it's actually a great sign. And then, you know, another thing, a friend of mine, um, a buddy of mine here in Los Angeles, his name is Eric Barker, wrote a book called Barking Up the Wrong Tree, which is a phenomenal book. If that book would've come out, you know, five years ago I would've assigned it as reading in my courses. It's really good. It's about life success. And we were talking about it one day and he said, you know, for, for every one person that attacks you, there's anywhere from five to 10 that. So I'm thinking like, all right, awesome. You know, the more I get attacked, the more people are on my side in reality. So it's a, it's a way of misinterpreting it or reinterpreting it for me though, the funny thing is, you know, being recognized in public, um, from my old street days in New York, cause I spent a lot of time on a street in New York when New York was a very dangerous place like there were in the, in the mid eighties, there wasn't a safe street corner in, in New York City, literally. So you know, my, for my street days, the minute somebody locks on, I start to get defensive. You know, the street and me comes out a little bit and I'm kind of like, yeah, you know? Yeah. What? Yeah, bring it. What do you want? What's wrong with you? What are you looking at? You know, you looking at me, the Robert De Niro thing from taxi driver, right? You're looking at me. You looking at me. And now somebody locks on me and I gotta stop myself from, from reacting with a counter attack because usually they'll say, are you Chris Vos? Can I get a picture with you? And they don't feel really stupid for, for having started to get, you know, defensive around them. So I, I'm, it happens rarely, but every now and then, I just have to, I, I gotta, I gotta revert to my nice self instead of my street

Tara Cardinal: self. Okay. So, um, I'm, I'm a woman and. I got attacked long before I became a public figure. Um, you know, sometimes those attacks seemed very gentle. Uh, you know, just walking down the street, Hey baby, but I'm 11, so maybe construction workers shouldn't be yelling, Hey, baby at me, or talking about my body parts. And that's just kind of the reality for. When that transitioned from real life into the cyber world, the emails that I would get, and I've gotten some pretty horrible, uh, emails, uh, some things that, that could upset me for, for a few days. Um, and some reviews too, to go along with it. Gosh, I read one that said, um, I looked like I could be disarmed by a nail file. And I think that review came out the same month I was inducted into the Martial Arts Hall of Fame. I guess the, the real key is to look at it and say the, this attack isn't about me. This is about the person who's attacking. I ha they don't know me. I haven't done anything to them. Uh, something awesome in me has triggered an insecurity in them. And so it really is a compliment. Uh, it's a backhanded one, but it's still a compliment. Um, and so I. I don't take those things. I try not to take them, uh, the way I used to, at least,

Chris Voss: you know, and if, if I could add in on that too. The, the hard part about this for men, if you will. Like, we have no idea what a woman goes through on a daily basis. And I never really thought about it at all until I saw a videotape, uh, where they shot this, this woman just walking down the street in New York. , you know, she can't get five blocks without being harassed by somebody. Yeah. You know, and, and so, you know, as a man, we got, we got no idea how much nonsense, offensive, nonsense that all women have to put up with just walking down the street. It's crazy to think of how oblivious we are to how much that they go through on a regular basis. So, and that, and that's why in, in many instances our reaction is like, eh, you know, you're overreacting. You know, it can't be that bad. Well, you know, in reality it probably is that bad. You know, I'm, I'm sure Tara were to walk, if she would've come to the USC campus, she came to a couple of my classes at usc. If she'd, if she'd have walked across a campus end to end just to get to class during the day, or maybe even. she'd have got at least four or five cat calls, you know, at least people, some sort of harassment. And, and as men, we just, we have no idea how much that you women have to put up with on a regular basis.

Fei Wu: This conversation, and I just heard Tara say that you're also a martial artist and then you're looking at people. I'm not sure about Chris, but Adam and I both have spent, you know, 30 plus years myself, 15 plus years in martial arts, and I remember I chose to fight with men a lot of the times. Even when I was a white belt and yellow belt, and Adam has witnessed a lot of, than Adam's much bigger than I am, and I got better so much faster. And that's the point I'm trying to make, is when you fight someone that much taller, stronger, in some cases, higher belts than you are, I got better. And what I'm witnessing right now is that if a woman wants to become a kick ass negotiator, maybe go to the best male negotiator to learn that skills and you will be so much. Advance. I never, I literally just thought of

Chris Voss: that. Well, and the other thing too is this particular style of negotiation, you know, we get a lot of reason, me and my team to believe that women pick it up faster. Um, women pick it up faster, uh, and they don't get penalized for it. Is having a conversation with a couple of my colleagues the other day, and one of them, Derek, gone. Is going on and on about how he's been doing some coaching, and one of his former hostage negotiators is now in a real estate industry, a woman is killing it. And when she was one of his negotiators, he always preferred women negotiators because they picked it up faster. So women, women picked this up faster and nobody that either me or anybody in my, uh, company has ever coached, has ever fed back to us that they were penalized for being a. and the coaching that I gave Tara is no different than coaching. We give anybody else. We, we don't teach people to be shrinking violence, you know, we don't teach people to give in, never split the difference. But you don't have to be a jerk when you do it. That's, that's the point. And that's what I think women are more sensitive to be in jerks, which is why the leery of negotiation training, because you, you think the poster child for negotiation is a certain. Chief executive head of a particular country that raves about what a great negotiator is. And that is not the style of negotiation that we teach or that we think is effective.

Tara Cardinal: Well, I don't wanna speak for all women, but I would, um, for myself, um, just, just hone that down a little bit. I'm not afraid of being a jerk when I walk onto a set that I am running, I could give a fuck if anyone likes me and I'm not afraid to admit. However, that's not my first point of attack. I will be nice and kind and respectful until that doesn't work. And then I will be the world's biggest bitch. I don't care. What concerns me is being penalized for being a jerk. So whereas a man, a leader of certain countries, can be well rewarded for being an ass, uh, a woman in that same situation would be smushed. I can't think of a situation off the top of my head where that recently.

Fei Wu: I'm so glad you went there, Tara, because out of the, the trivia in your biography, there's so many of them. Um, I was trying to read out exactly what you wrote, but what hit me the most is you, these, the integrity of you. Um, as a, you know, you call yourself a freelance. Um, actress. And so instead of going after every deal or every casting call out there, you says something that the story itself has to hold up. You know, the writing has to hold up. You can't just use a pair of ti to make it work and have a, I thought it was so funny. At the same time, um, really demonstrate who you are as a person. And I, from a woman's perspective, I, I really liked reading. The, you know, Chris and also Tara, you've gone, you've done a lot lately. And Chris, I follow you on Facebook. You've traveled to different countries and, um, is there something, uh, new that you would like to share with the audience that we haven't had a chance to talk about yet? Uh,

Chris Voss: Well, you know, we're, we're still pushing us forward. I mean, we've gotten to the point where the book is a great underlying base for the negotiation that we're teaching, but we're still discovering new stuff because people like Tara or whoever else we might be coaching, they're helping us think of new combinations. So, you know, before I, I talked, I, I, I want people to, not just by the book, but subscribe to the new. Because we, we are pushing this forward. We're, we're getting more into a lot of industries such as customer service. We're much heavier into sales, specifically also marketing specifically. So, you know, anybody who who wants to see negotiation is a great collaboration and they want to get better and it's not that hard to get better. Um, but I, I'd love to see him sub can still subscribe to the newsletter, the. All right, send the words, FBI, empathy, uh, no space, all, all one word. Don't let your spell check, uh, change it and put a space in FBI empathy. If you're someplace where you can text the number. Two. 28. 28, that's 22 8 28. You get a dialogue box back, it'll, it'll, um, let you sign up for the newsletter. And also we're doing, we're doing more and more open enrollment training. We just got done in, in Washington DC last week. We're going to New York in November. We're probably gonna end up working a total of about 10 cities around the corner, around the country. on an annual basis. So wherever you are, we're gonna have some training close by that you can come out to. And what we're doing now in the open enrollment training also is we're sharing stuff that we're not sharing

Fei Wu: anywhere else. Is there a chance that you may be near the East coast, uh, near where we are, Boston or New York? Anytime soon. I'd love to meet you in person.

Chris Voss: Oh yeah. Well, we're gonna be in, we're gonna be in New York in, um, in October. And we're also looking at Boston. We're looking there. There we're seeing a lot of subscribers in the Boston area and I think we're gonna develop some training and be in Boston too.

Fei Wu: I would love that. We both love to attend and uh, I can see how you know, everything that, you know, such a privilege to be able to talk into you. And then in this case, Tara, as a actual client, to really be able to see. Transformation, you know, to say the least. Um, there's negotiation happening every, every single day. You know, I'm so enjoying this. I've only booked an hour. I have to let you guys go. Um, so look forward to, uh, hopefully more follow up conversations and absolutely being there in either Boston or New York. Yeah. Thank you so much.

Chris Voss: Oh, you guys were great. Thank you very much, Tara. Thanks for coming on on.

Tara Cardinal: Thanks for having me on guys. It was really

Fei Wu: nice to meet you both. Hey, it's Fay. I am back for a few words at the end of the show. I hope you enjoy what you heard. You can visit us online at fay's world.com, where social channels such as Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, also under phase world to keep things. I personally review and respond to all the messages. Love to hear from you. Thank you, and lots of hugs. See you next week.